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 Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!

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Firsanthalas
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PostSubject: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:52 pm

Ok people.
We have a situation with regard to the leadership of the alliance.
Unfortunately the leader of an alliance is determined by loyalty points.
Therefore, whoever has the most loyalty points becomes leader automatically.

To resolve/prevent disputes I propose the following:

The leadership of the alliance should be decided by the high council members, or a vote by all alliance members.
This needs to be decided (probably by high council)
Once people reach a certain level of loyalty (say 75% of alliance leaders), there should be a meeting to discuss the situation.
If the person with 75% loyalty wants to challenge, they should say so.
If they don’t, they should leave the alliance and then rejoin, thus reducing their loyalty points.
If a leadership challenger is voted against leading the alliance, they should also resign from the alliance as above.

What do you say to this?
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Shadowseeker

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:29 pm

A nice idea, but what if the others who want to challenge do not agree with it?
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Firsanthalas
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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:36 pm

We have a council don't we? Majority vote by council members to decide whether to use this proposal or not.
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stormrunner



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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:26 pm

good plan, and good job you have found the first step in a well traveled road


Last edited by stormrunner on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Raven
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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:34 pm

I think this isn't very important since everyone with high loyalty in our alliance won't try and take over leadership of alliance. Since everyone are satisfied with Nelya's work, right?

So I don't quite support the idea....
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Firsanthalas
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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:29 pm

Raven, I'm sorry, but you are wrong in that matter. Once someone has a higher loyalty they are automatically the leader of the alliance (even if they have no interest). Also it seems that at least one person has a view to becoming leader of the alliance, so it is very important that a decision is reached.
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Raven
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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:07 pm

Firsanthalas wrote:
Raven, I'm sorry, but you are wrong in that matter. Once someone has a higher loyalty they are automatically the leader of the alliance (even if they have no interest).

I know that.... And I think it should be changed... Tho thats the way it is right now...

Firsanthalas wrote:
Also it seems that at least one person has a view to becoming leader of the alliance, so it is very important that a decision is reached.

*curious look* Who would that be?
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Tarquinus

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:25 pm

There is a workaround. If NelyaSetesh chooses a Protector, she can boost her loyalty as much as she wants through prayer. I know this because my own loyalty score is absurdly high from the days when I gave heat to RJ on a very regular basis.

I would prefer to see NelyaSetesh kept as the Alliance leader, and I offer my assistance in keeping her there in any way I can.
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Sage McQuincy

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:24 pm

Mur can give loyalty to players... maybe he can give much loyalty to Nelya...
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Aqune

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:46 am

While I like Nelya too and hope she remains leader the fact is that fighting for loyalty to become alliance leader is a part of the game and ultimately a good part in my opinion. Unlike in most games where alliances are fixed and such Manu tried to make something unique here with the loyalty system and even though dst was able to mess it up before I would hate to see it go. It creates chance for more intrigue and makes things more challenging.

I do not believe we should try and stop this process if someone is trying to be leader or even gets there by accident. However Nelya can still get loyalty herself through prayer etc. savelfuser would be the obvious choice to worship for her I guess since he is in the alliance too though I'm getting closer to MP6 every day Wink

By the way a long time ago Manu was thinking of allowing players to join alliance automatically if they had enough honor (ie without invitation). I think this was all part of his plan to make it so that no one really 'owns' any alliance but it is something above players which rewards them with loyalty and leadership based on how well they advance its cause. Its an interesting idea and one that may still be implemented in the future so we better be prepared for it.
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stormrunner



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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:08 am

aque you just the reason I mentioned a well traveled road those in power right now have seen a danger to that power and are trying to protect it even if NelyaSetesh is a good leader(I don't know if she is I've only talked to her once and have not seen her do any real leading then again I know little about the higher ups I dislike ivory towers I pefer the gutter) the road this would start is the road that leads to not so nice places for the road to hell is paved with good intentions and I can see that, that is where this may lead but maybe I am wrong it would not be the first time nor would it be the last(laughs) but then again I don't really care who the head I chose to serve the soul of loreroot which is NelyaSetesh

just a little wisdom form a rebel feel free to ignore it most do (smiles)but I call those people fools
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Shadowseeker

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:33 pm

The thing is that loyalty can either be gained through praying or through fights..however some people normally do not choose this method, they are here to RP instead of fighting, like Nelya. It might be a good idea to have the leaders changing, but the majority of this alliance supports the current leader and does not wish to see an overthrow.

If they can simply continue it basically just is a matter of who fights more or who gains more heat, otherwise the leader can enforce this with a kick...which Nelya obviously don't want to resort to.

Seriously, would you like the idea of someone who simply runs off killing everyone for loyalty to gain the leadership a good idea? I mean if it is that way, you could give me 1 week where I have enough time and I would be the leader, as long as I do not get kicked in between.

I do not like this way, there has to be some sort of agreement within the alliance if someone is a candidate or not.
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Aqune

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:02 am

Dueling is as much an important part of this game as roleplay and you have to do some of both to succeed whether you like it or not. Gaining loyalty is also not as easy as you think; if you think you can get enough for leadership in a week go ahead and try I doubt you will succeed. There are also some MD Shop items that give you loyalty so its not just prayer and battle. More ways may be added in the future as the game develops.

Yes like I said in my previous post I do like the current system of determining leadership. Its not just about 'killing' as well as making things more dynamic by forcing the leader to work for their position and allowing hostile and possibly secret takeovers giving lots of potential for intrigue, it also prevents the alliance form becoming a clique which is what would happen if you just let the high council decide. And no there does not have to be any agreement within the alliance on who is a candidate and who isn’t, this isn’t a democracy and because of their ability to kick people it would make it impossible for anyone to beat the leader if they knew who was trying beforehand.

Its true Nelya could just kick anyone that she thinks is challenging her but that costs her loyalty too which might let others beat her so it is not something she can do lightly. I remind you that dst was even able to get his character to be leader in the Shade Sentinels where there were a lot of people actively pursuing leadership unlike here yet they still didn’t kick him in time. That inability to know who is trying to become leader and who isn’t is all part of the challenge of maintaining position or getting in.

Ultimately if this happens and say Eden or King Bull take over then what will you do then? Complain to Manu about it? He may reconsider the current system but since he didn’t even change it after the dst disaster I think he probably wants it this way for the reasons I stated above. After all he not only condoned but also actively encouraged the cloak and dagger stuff between alliances during the war even though it ended up hurting this alliance.

Since this is the official system and what we are doing on this forum is essentially unofficial it would be very hard for us to try circumventing this system through social agreements on this board so I think we should deal with it as is in the game. Best way to do that is to help Nelya gain more loyalty.
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Tarquinus

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:56 am

Aqune wrote:
Dueling is as much an important part of this game as roleplay and you have to do some of both to succeed whether you like it or not.
Amen. A solid character in this game must be grounded in the "game reality" of it. Let not my loyalty to NelyaSetesh be questioned, but Aqune's point here is one I wish more players would take to heart.
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BlackThorn
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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:21 pm

I am truly dismayed by what I have read here. Loreroot is not like other alliances. We do not turn on each other or our leaders. Almost every new idea being implemented in Md world has either it's origin in, or connection to, Loreroot. NelyaSetesh is the reason for this. She and all the other members of the high council spend their time and energy working on creating new spells, new CRTs, new weapons and armor, and fostering innovations of every kind to make the game more enjoyable for all the players. Do you know that Eden spends large portions of his time working to create new CRTs? Or that Calyx often selflessly spends more time working on projects to make the game better than she should for her health? Did you even know she is a member of Loreroot high council? Raven manages almost all administrative duties for this Alliance, including this forum, with little or no help I might add. Udgard works on creating new spells, weapons, and CRTs. Each and every member of the high council spends more time in helping to improve and build this game than they do in playing it. Nelya could spend her time playing and training, but chooses to serve the rest of you instead. The same is true of every member of the high council. Oh and bye the way, Nelya also leads the translation teams.

Each and every member of this alliance swore an oath of loyalty to NelyaSetesh, and to each other. I expect each and every one of you to keep it. In the artisans guild Morrel has much more loyalty than does GlorDamar, and yet there is no question that Glor is our leader. It takes more than loyalty points to make a leader. We have strategic agreements and relationships with every major social and political group in MD. Again only Nelya has pulled that off. None of the other Alliances can boast her accomplishments. Who else has made room for and fostered the development of potentially rival groups. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't believe any other alliance has taken up the cause to establish an official game recognition of groups like the Children of the Eclipse or the Savellites, or made their leaders part of their high council.

I hope there will be no more talk of voting or challenges to Nelya’s Leadership. I know all of you are loyal to Loreroot, but this kind of talk is not in keeping with Loreroot values regardless of whether the game rules allow for it or not. I am sure none of you wished to have our alliance behave like Necrovion where each member vies for power, turning on one another, but rather an alliance where we help and support one another.
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stormrunner



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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:02 pm

hmm why do I know basiclly none of what you just said, I'm around most of the time yet most of what you said is news to me why as I have I have no clue what the high council does no one ever tells the grunts whats going on and I never swore any oath to NelyaSetesh I swore(to myself) to protect the innocences of chaos woods(if you don't know the old name for both loreroot and Marind's Bell) and most would likily keep their mouth shut if we know that these other things(or that at least the one like me who no one told anything)but if you all are off doing those things who paying attention to the world around you guess who the grunts who don't know anything but then again I choose to be a grunt I know I wouldn't be always in the loop and the fact the the moment someone loyalty got kind of high you turn on him without speaking to him(I know you dealed with it but it still a point) so on the surporting thing you can't talk

and ok good I'm glad someone is doing those things I looks forward to seeing them when there done feel free to focus on that just next give some noction to the disposable grunts even if it only a hey we're working on new creats at least so the few like me don't make a (...) of ourselfs(ok at this point in time it myself) and I have friends in other alliances thats not as big as you may think

I've said my peace shutting up now and as before feel free to pay me no mind after all I'm just a grunt
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BlackThorn
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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:11 am

stormrunner wrote:
hmm why do I know basiclly none of what you just said, I'm around most of the time yet most of what you said is news to me why as I have I have no clue what the high council does no one ever tells the grunts whats going on and I never swore any oath to NelyaSetesh I swore(to myself) to protect the innocences of chaos woods(if you don't know the old name for both loreroot and Marind's Bell) and most would likily keep their mouth shut if we know that these other things(or that at least the one like me who no one told anything)but if you all are off doing those things who paying attention to the world around you guess who the grunts who don't know anything but then again I choose to be a grunt I know I wouldn't be always in the loop and the fact the the moment someone loyalty got kind of high you turn on him without speaking to him(I know you dealed with it but it still a point) so on the surporting thing you can't talk

and ok good I'm glad someone is doing those things I looks forward to seeing them when there done feel free to focus on that just next give some noction to the disposable grunts even if it only a hey we're working on new creats at least so the few like me don't make a (...) of ourselfs(ok at this point in time it myself) and I have friends in other alliances thats not as big as you may think

I've said my peace shutting up now and as before feel free to pay me no mind after all I'm just a grunt

Storm we did not turn on anyone, we received complaints from our fellow members of an individual seeking to take control of Loreroot. We questioned that person as to what their intentions were. We have been assured that a take over is not their intent, but as to what their intent is they have not yet shared with us. No action was, or is being taken against that person who is a respected and valuable member of this alliance.
As for not being told of what activities are currently in the works, each member knows exactly how much they choose to know...in other words... you don't know, because you do not ask. There are no prefered members in this alliance. Anyone wishing to sit on the high council is welcome....the only requirement is that you take on some responsibility and spend your time working on any one of many projects, or introduce your own ideas. Nelya is our leader, and as such she is the person who decides what we work on so that we can coordinate our efforts and have the most advantageous impact on the game. as for being a "grunt"; "grunts" get to play, council members get to work. It is always your choice as to what your role within the Alliance will be.
No one has been kicked out of the alliance simply because they have advanced their loyalty quickly. If we do not have each others trust and support, then we really have nothing. We might as well be like all the other alliances, in it only for our individual advancement. Storm if you cannot see that the people of Loreroot: is Loreroot, then I am left to wonder why you would choose to join the alliance at all. There are indeed many promanent players who have chosen to not accept official alliance status but still work very hard to advance and support Loreroot and our ideals throughout the game. That is not something that any other alliance can boast.
If you were not asked for an oath of loyalty to NelyaSetesh and your fellow members when you were invited to join, then I ask you for it now. You have said you wish to protect the "innocences of the chaos woods" but the Chaos woods are no more. It was torn in two by Wind's and Raven's rivalry. a lesson from history we all should learn from. Or, ask Calyx for the meaning of Mitakuye Oyasin.
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stormrunner



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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:26 pm

(smiles)you wish to have a oath then check your own log little bard(if somehow I forgot to do yours check NelyaSetesh's) that is my oath, as far as chaos wood goes names chage there's a line on the map, but I can't stress enough how little I care about things like that my friend mostly send their time loreroot and Marind's Bell the old name that cover both is choas wood so that is what a choose to defend and I have always surpported loreroot form both in the shadow and in the light even if her other people rarely do(not counting the friends in loreroot I meet them before they joined) and as long as the Guardian are just they have my sword even if you don't want it and I had no real plans to join the guardians of the root tell NelyaSetesh asked me to if you want to know why I am here as a member then ask her and after you find out feel free to tell me I going on she needed another grunt
and how can I ask you never answer pms atleast form me and with that your tell me that what you do is none of my business which is kind of telling my that you have no respect for me or others like me and which is pretty sad I still have respect for you but I can see that it not return infull but I still hold to my path because that is my choice

p.s. I could say more but it would hit others I do not wish to say anything about now I have to get back to defending what I choose and enjoy you path, been fun crossing words with you lets play again
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Aqune

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PostSubject: Re: Leadership of Loreroot - IMPORTANT PLEASE READ!   Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:29 am

BlackThorn wrote:
I am truly dismayed by what I have read here. Loreroot is not like other alliances. We do not turn on each other or our leaders. Almost every new idea being implemented in Md world has either it's origin in, or connection to, Loreroot. NelyaSetesh is the reason for this. She and all the other members of the high council spend their time and energy working on creating new spells, new CRTs, new weapons and armor, and fostering innovations of every kind to make the game more enjoyable for all the players. Do you know that Eden spends large portions of his time working to create new CRTs? Or that Calyx often selflessly spends more time working on projects to make the game better than she should for her health? Did you even know she is a member of Loreroot high council? Raven manages almost all administrative duties for this Alliance, including this forum, with little or no help I might add. Udgard works on creating new spells, weapons, and CRTs. Each and every member of the high council spends more time in helping to improve and build this game than they do in playing it. Nelya could spend her time playing and training, but chooses to serve the rest of you instead. The same is true of every member of the high council. Oh and bye the way, Nelya also leads the translation teams.

Each and every member of this alliance swore an oath of loyalty to NelyaSetesh, and to each other. I expect each and every one of you to keep it. In the artisans guild Morrel has much more loyalty than does GlorDamar, and yet there is no question that Glor is our leader. It takes more than loyalty points to make a leader. We have strategic agreements and relationships with every major social and political group in MD. Again only Nelya has pulled that off. None of the other Alliances can boast her accomplishments. Who else has made room for and fostered the development of potentially rival groups. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't believe any other alliance has taken up the cause to establish an official game recognition of groups like the Children of the Eclipse or the Savellites, or made their leaders part of their high council.

I hope there will be no more talk of voting or challenges to Nelya’s Leadership. I know all of you are loyal to Loreroot, but this kind of talk is not in keeping with Loreroot values regardless of whether the game rules allow for it or not. I am sure none of you wished to have our alliance behave like Necrovion where each member vies for power, turning on one another, but rather an alliance where we help and support one another.

Sorry it took me so long to respond but I don’t read this forum that often.

Anyway you do bring up some good points and maybe I got carried away in my earlier posts. I know we are not like Necrovion Sentinels where its all about power and secrecy (suits them though) whereas Loreroot Guardians is more about nature and harmony.

Still I liked the novelty of the idea that position in an alliance (or ‘house’ as it was supposed to be called) was determined externally by a game dynamic rather then internally by the leadership like with all other games. It gives anyone no matter how unknown a chance and really opens up the possibilities for the intrigue that took place during the war and which even Loreroot did not escape (remember Glaistig?). This is actually the point Manu made about it when alliances first came out and leadership was determined by honour (there was no ‘loyalty’ back then) which people weren’t used to so they questioned it (the thread on the forum is probably gone by now along with the ‘pre-revival’ alliance board). This is why I think he wants to keep the system the way it is though it is still possible he will try to rework it when he has time like he did with the honour system. Maybe have different systems for different alliances? Such as the current system for Necrovion and Golemus Golemicarium, voting for Marind Bell and maybe a different system for us. It would make things more interesting.

I’m sure that the people on the high council (which seems to be a separate entity from the alliance proper) have all made great contributions to the game and may even been rewarded for it in the future but that is true of some other players too. So what is really the relationship of the high council to the Guardians of The Root? Is the alliance based on the current game dynamic (e.g. battles between the lands) or on contributions to the game (e.g. creating new spells, weapons, and CRTs)? It seems there is some ambiguity in the current alliance system that will have to be worked out.

Like I said before I support NeylaSetesh as leader, I was not challenging her and hope we don’t end up fighting amongst ourselves but it makes you wonder at the strength of our alliance when dst said it was the easiest one for him to take over.
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PostSubject: Leadership and Loyalty   Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:19 pm

A leader does not claim ownership of an Alliance, is its a Privledge. If a player finds themselves up to a level that makes them uncomfortable, then they should leave on their own.

I also propose that all leaders have a second in command who has access to a contingency plan should the above happen like it did to Nelya Setesh.

However, I feel also that a player should hae the right to Challenge the current leader if they so wish it. A battle of three rounds might be an option to use. History shows a consistant Challenge to leadership. However, instead of killing the Challenger, the challenger should be forbidden to rejoin the Alliance again in the Leader life time (place as Leader).
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